I wrote:
Where to start?
Sorry for not linking to your site from mine. I usually don't if there's offensive language there. But I'll leave it up this time to be fair.
Again, there's no need to stereotype me. No crucifix is hanging over my bed. I don't use fear to control people. I don't "talk" to God or hear voices, though I do pray. I wasn't imprinted by my parents, trapped to believe whatever they believed.
My beliefs are not based on the need for an emotional crutch. I'm not an emotionally needy person at all, in fact I'm quite analytical and open minded. And Jenn, I'm not going off a translation. I took 6 semesters of Koine Greek in college and can read the original texts for myself. Their reliability and harmony is humbling, so don't be dismissive so quickly.
I believe what I believe because of evidence, logic, and reason, not bitterness or political correctness. I've investigated both sides of the argument. I'm going to guess that you can't say the same, Edelman, because the way you talk about Xnty shows you don't understand it very well. And Jenn, that goes for you too. Your Episcopal priests must have left out the part where Jesus excluded any and every other path to God but the one that goes thru him. So you either take Xnty by itself or you're forced to leave it out of the mix. That's part of the mutually exclusive issue I referenced earlier.
Edelman, you're right in a way that I support part of your argument. I detest the blind-faith-folks who won't ask questions about what they believe and why. Real Christianity stands up to this scrutiny, but Mormonism, Islam, and others start falling apart when you begin asking questions. So they have to rule by intimidation. Some of the greatest minds in history (Newton, Pasteur, Bacon, Kepler, Pascal, Boyle, Faraday, Kelvin, Carver, et al.) have reasoned thru Xnty and found that it embraces the questioner and provides coherrent answers about reality (some of these guys, like Newton, wrote more on Xnty than they did in their other fields of study). Religious folks (in a bad sense) of all stripes often haven't asked the questions and won't suffer those who do (Crusades, Inquisition, Terrorism, church hierarchies, etc.). But that's NOT the Xnty you find in the Bible. Not even close.
But I'd like to have you consider the issue of arrogance. Anyone who says my way is the only way (just because it's mine), ought to be dragged behind a horse. What arrogance! Bigots usually won't even give a hearing to the other side. They ASSUME they know everything they need to know and dismiss it out of hand.
What arrogance to say, philosphically speaking, that God does NOT exist. To know that empirically would mean that you have searched every corner of this universe and every point in time and have scientifically proven He's not there. Sorry can't be done.
What arrogance to say I've come up with an idea that seems good to me and I'm going to just declare it to be reality. If I say Edelman is actually a 70 year old chinese woman that doesn't make it true even if I sincerely believe it. You are what you are (the truth about you) apart from my opinions and understanding. If a million people try to guess your birthday, only 1 out of 365 (give or take) will actually be right. Not all guesses are equal. Some are categorically wrong, even though they have the same goal and intention.
To recap: my opinion, my sincerity, majority rule or conventional wisdom, whatever my parents believed, etc. does not determine what is actually true. To think otherwise is the height of arrogance.
IF God is real in any sense, then the same is true of him. He is what he is regardless of how many people think otherwise. Even if everyone thought otherwise, it has no impact on the truth.
Edelman, you seem to have defined God as something that does not exist in reality (outside of the minds of people). Can you prove that? Can anyone? Jenn, your understanding has the reality of God determined by the various and conflicting whims of people's thoughts. Does that make sense to you?
Aren't both of those claims things you can't prove logically? To persist in something you can't prove is dogmatism of the worst kind… and arrogant.
Not wanting to be arrogant, I would claim to know nothing (agnostic, no one can really be atheist unless they just have a chip on their shoulder). But that's where the claims of Bible interrupt my otherwise blissful ignorance.
It claims that the creator revealed himself to the creation. Hmmm… yeah right… what's the evidence? Changed lives, changed nations, changed history. Inexplicable wisdom and truth about who and what I am. Ok, test this. Is it logical? Does it hold water? A lot of the time the people don't but the actual words do.
And what if the creation rejected the creator? Seems reasonable, it has happened in my own heart. What if the creator chooses to provide a remedy to rebridge the divide? Now I would be interested in finding out more about that.
Key point: I want to find out more truth about the creator. I'm not going to be satisfied with opinions and conventional wisdom. It's an act of humility to seek the truth regardless of my own feelings and the feelings of others.
Books to read if you're really open minded about this: A Case for Faith by Lee Strobel, an atheist journalist who set out to prove Xnty wrong by investigating the facts. C.S. Lewis's Mere Christianity, a deep examination of the existence of God and truth of the claims of Jesus.
If you haven't given these a fair reading, you can't say you've been honest in the debate. By the way, I have a copy of On the Origin of Species on the shelf behind me as I type this.
Please feel free to contact me. In fact if you're ever in Kansas City, you're welcome in my home. I like to stay up late and debate stuff.
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